What does God Hope For?

Paradoxes: Am I right in saying that god can not change his own mind?

Assuming as the bible says that God is all knowing then, he knows that he will change his mind. If that is so he can never change this mind because he knows he will change it in the first place.

Jonathan Doolin, Christian Atheist

The mechanism for changing possibility into fact is called "the present"

If God exists, and can be said to have set the universe in motion, and make decisions as to its principles and workings (A very big IF, but not completely implausible... Only 99.9999% implausible...  Okay, I haven't really done the math on this one.)

But where was I?  It seems to me, simply from my own observations that God(either because he cannot, or has simply chooses not to) doesn't change the past.  If something has already happened, God won't change His/Her/Its mind.

But if something has not happened yet, it lies in the future...  God has made some decisions about the way things will happen... We cannot suddenly grow wings, or make become invisible, or begin seeing light in the infrared, ultraviolet, radio, and X-ray spectrums.  I don't have perfect free will to do whatever I want, but I do have free will within a certain scope.

But within the realm of the actually possible--God has made no decisions on what we will do.  Each of us is capable, at any time, of acting in an entirely unexpected way.  It is not God, but other humans who will react and punish behavior that is too far out-of-line... (Some think that God will also send down asteroids or make volcanoes explode, or send whales after people if they make the wrong choices... But I think that asteroids, volcanoes, and whales would happen whether people made good choices or not.)

If God has not made any decisions about what we will do, he is not changing his mind when we do something unexpected.  But here's what I think is a more important question than "Can God change his mind..."

"What does God Hope For?"

If I don't believe that God really exists, is it nonsensical to wonder about what God hopes for?  I don't think so...  It provides an opening for a discussion about what is ABSOLUTE good.  What is humanity's role in the universe?  Do we have a purpose, other than what we make for ourselves?  If we have an ABSOLUTE purpose, then it might be possible to succeed or fail in that purpose.  If our purpose is simply what we make for ourselves, then God never made made up his mind in the first place about our future.

Even so... What does God hope for?  Does God hope that humankind will somehow overcome some kind of adversity?  Does God hope for humankind to be a short-lived blip in the history of the universe, or a transitional stage in the evolution of creatures from flesh to robotic?  Or does God hope that humankind remains on the face of the earth until the sun goes red-giant, 5 billion years hence?

One True Church of the Bible? (Evading the Question?)

Kevin Lawson
Sounds like you know enough to start your own "one true church of the Bible." :)

What is your source for your comments about the Holy Spirit?

Jonathan Doolin

Can you find a definition for "Holy Spirit" in the Bible?  I haven't found one.  But I think for what it says in Luke to be true, then Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit must be a truly awful thing.

If I am to accept this idea that "to blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven" I must find in it, some kind of tautology.  What is an unforgivable action?

Doing evil for the sake of doing evil.

Making a decision never to love, and to always hate.  It may be to some extent a state of being, rather than an action.  If you are always going around the world seeing nothing but evil, nobody else can forgive you for that.  Not even God.  If you despise beauty, and despise goodness, and despise life, and you believe everyone around you is hypocrite and despicable, you are a victim of your own perceptions...

But there is a definition of Holy Spirit, in John 3.  It says "The Holy Spirit Does what it wants to."

Nicodemus couldn't figure out what Jesus was talking about.  But look at the alternative.  What sort of Spirit does what it does NOT want to.  That is what we call "pragmatism."  That is the spirit that would like to do what it wants, but acknowledges that it is a dog-eat-dog world out there, and you have to sometimes do bad things to get by.

Am I citing John to find the truth?  Perhaps... But I don't look to John for anything except riddles.  If the Holy Spirit does whatever it wants to, you have to hold that up to the light and see what it means.  Because it certainly does not mean taking advantage of the poor and the meek.  If that is what people truly "want" to do, then I have no part in this world.

Kevin Lawson

So what if you have no part in this world? Not to be rude, but this sounds a lot like truth can be determined on the basis of what you want to be true.

Jonathan Doolin

I have no part of this world...  You seem to have caught me there in a moment of pointless gloom, and even logical error.

For instance, in a world of intellectual property, when I was young, I worried that people might steal my ideas.  Now that I am older, I worry more that no one will notice my ideas.  I also worry that I'll only be remembered for my worst ideas.

If there is such a thing as a "meek" which is defined as "quiet, gentle, and easily imposed on; submissive." then it is quite possible that such people would rather like to be "taken advantage of" than to be ignored entirely.

I don't know where I rate in the meekness scale, but I believe that I am a beneficiary of ideas and work and effort that has come from "the meek" and I don't know how many of them have been "taken advantage of."

So yes, I do have a part in this world, regardless of who has taken advantage of who, of course.  But here's my point... I don't think that I "wanted" to take advantage of anybody... despite the fact that my low-cost-purchases might seem otherwise.  I don't think that the store that sold me low-cost-items "wanted" to take advantage of anybody.  I don't think that the shipping company "wants" to take advantage of anybody.   There are very few in the system that "want" to take advantage of anybody, yet the system still has winners and losers; some that get awarded unfairly.  Some that are abused unfairly.  Do people really "want" the kinds of injustices that arise?

Perhaps some of them do.  But why?  Is it because they have some kind of wish for "evil?"  No.  They will all justify their actions with "Mr. X is even worse than I am.  I take care of my people.  I take care of my family...  I'm stealing from people that don't need it.  I'm so desperate I don't have any choice." etc.  They don't do evil for evil's sake, but because their perceptions are that what they are doing is justified.  In every one of these cases though, if they ever changed their perceptions, and realized what harm they were doing, they would stop doing harm.  Those people can hypothetically be forgiven because they aren't doing evil for evil's-sake.

On the other hand, if a person fully understands what harm they are doing, and goes on and does it without any rationale or justification whatsoever. except the thrill of evil-doing... probably isn't going to be stopped without being locked up and tied down. That person really can't be forgiven--just restrained.

Kevin Lawson

Does it matter if your ideas are noticed? Does it matter if evil people are forgiven?

Jonathan Doolin 1 vote

 by Kevin Lawson

Well, on the first question, there are two parts.  (1) Does it matter whether the idea is acknowledged.
(2) Does it matter whether the idea is credited to me.

Well, I think it is important to make the distinction between what John's gospel requires (belief in the name of the only begotten son of god), and what the synoptic gospels require (forgiveness and kindness).

Once people see that distinction made clearly, I'm not really quite sure where it goes.  My personal feeling is that John somehow betrayed Jesus... misrepresenting his teaching and purpose.

On the second question, does it matter if evil people are forgiven?  Well, your question is based on the hypothesis that "evil people" exist.  I would contend that "evil" is an adverb, describing actions... Not an adjective, describing persons.  A person is capable of evil-doing, but is also capable of doing good.

Your hypothesis may also be based on the premise that "forgiving" is an action.  Is it?  Forgiveness could simply be a decision not to punish, or take vengeance, or dwell on the insult or injury.

But forgiveness could also be an alleviation of the misery and misperceptions that sometimes cause people to do evil.  Sometimes, information can be shared, and procedures, rules, communication, and technology can be improved so as to make it so no one is tempted to repeat the evils of generations before.

Evil should not be forgiven... It should be prevented or stopped.  But when people do evil, what is important is trying to "understand with the heart" so-to-speak, of what caused them to do evil, and if at all possible, provide them with the opportunity to turn, and be healed.

There's a thin line, I suppose, between "prevention of crime" and "vengeance",  People who are interested in punishing evil people seek vengeance.  People who are interested in forgiveness would seek the prevention of crime.

Kevin Lawson

Could it be that John was correct and Luke, Matthew etc. tried to fix up the story and make it more marketable?

Jonathan Doolin

Which side told the truth, and which side is just doing marketing?

To me--Matthew, Mark, and Luke give us a product... the teachings of Jesus; clear guidelines on what is right, and what is wrong. John gives us a brand-name: (John 3:16-18) you need to "believe in the Name of the Only Begotten Son"

John doesn't provide the teaching:(Typical -- See John 4:40-41) John does not giving us anything of substance.  He is giving us a brand name, or a package in which any teaching or any philosophy can be put.

Furthermore, he's not telling us what the correct brand-name is.  Some say it is "Emmanuel."  Some say the name is "Jesus"  Some say "Christ" etc.  Some say "any of the above."

Finally, what does it mean to believe in a brand-name?   Does it mean understanding the underlying meaning of the word?  Does it mean pronouncing it correctly, or spelling it correctly?  Does it mean believing in the person that held that name?  And if so, does it mean following his teaching, or just believing he existed, or believing that he performed some specific action or fulfilled some specific purpose.  Or does "believing in the name" just mean that whatever you put in that package, people will buy it?

Matthew 7:22-23 is a strongly worded disagreement with John 3:16-18. What matters to Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke is not whether people are preaching and doing miracles in his name... But whether they are following the Law of God.